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Author Topic: pa cable restraint device
c w hilling
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Howdy I live in va and trap here and use snares with good success but have a cabin in pa and would like to know how these pa snares work, good ,fair. pa.wi guys please give me your feedback. thanks
Posts: 4 | From: va | Registered: Jan 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Newt
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Would you set a trap. When even before you set it. You know you will hold only about 50-75% of the coyotes.That get cought in it ? (the 75% is on the Very high end)
Posts: 507 | From: Port Republic,South Jersey & Chocowinity NC | Registered: Jul 2000  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hal
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I hope some Pennsylvania folks post on here.

If you want to use these "cable restraints" it will be more than a matter of just driving to PA and buying a non-resident license. The last time I knew, you had to take a "certification" course to use these things in PA. So unless they've changed that regulation, you should be prepared to take that course.

[Smile] -- Hal

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Bismuth Boy
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You must pass the PA Cable Restraint course which is a 4-hour course and normally costs about $15. There has kind of been a dearth of courses available, hopefully there will be more courses scheduled this year. Check the PA Game Commission website, www.pgc.state.pa.us and click on the calendar on the right side of the page. Right now it looks as if there are only three classes scheduled, Sunday in Lancaster County, 5/6 in Schuylkill County, and 6/2 in Tioga County.

I hesitate to comment at this time on the regulations on cable restraints as there is a possibility that changes on equipment regulations will be brought up at the Commissioner's meeting on Saturday and Sunday.

Posts: 58 | From: Venango County, PA | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Bismuth Boy
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I just downloaded the agenda from the PA Game Commission Board of Commissioners meeting, scheduled for April 17/18. There are some wording changes proposed that will allow several different types of cable and different relaxing locks. Good news for the CR guys in PA. They also increase the breakaway strength to 375 pounds.
Posts: 58 | From: Venango County, PA | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Hal
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"They also increase the breakaway strength to 375 pounds."

[Eek!] [Eek!] [Eek!]

Talk about vacillating to the extreme!!!

[Roll Eyes] -- Hal

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phys23
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I don't understand Newts' reply up there. Is he against footholds or just thinks that all footholds will only hold 75% of the catches? Like I said I don't quite understand so could you clarify a little Newt?

Paul

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45/70
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You misunderstood Newt. He is not opposed to footholds.

I believe that what he was saying is that if the best of footholds available would only hold 75% of the animals they caught, would it be worth your time to set/check a line that was limited to the use of these traps.

His point is that a 75%, or less, catch & hold capability is the best one can expect out of the so-called cable restraints.

My pardner and I trap for the live market. We have live snared a lot of coyotes. We worked and expermented for several years before we got our techniques and equipment close to down pat. I assure you, that if I had a 25% chew-out rate in my live snares, I couldn't afford the time, equipment, and resources (as in $3.00/gallon diesel)to build the snares, and put out a live snare line.

I would rely on footholds, no matter how "loudly"
the set-site cried out for a snare.

A lot of snaremen believe that trappers have not gained, nor benefited from the PC cable restraints statutes. I am one of those. My lifetime experience has been that it is far easier to pass adequate (good)legislation in the first place, than it is to change, i.e. upgrade or improve, bad legislation later on.

Adios,
45/70,
RKBA !!!

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archer01
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Yes, you have to take a 4 hour Certification course.

The first cables they sold us came with a J hook break away devise," BAD"
It wouldn't hold a coyote over 30 pounds. All males got away.
I did catch 5 females. two of them had the J hook almost straighted out. Not good!

Last year, I started a thread, " Make me a better Pa. Cable Restraint". I used Hals S hooks for the BAD. He went to great extremes to help me make a better Pa. legal
cable restraint. Also I was unforntionate to test these because
either the coyotes avoided them this year or they were not there.
The only coyote I caught was in a foot hold,

If you do take the test and get Certified I would strongly advise you to buy the best, " BAD's" you can and the strongest Pa. will
allow. Then restrict your use around deer trails. If you run out and buy a bunch of store bought Pa. Cable Restraints beware !
Have a reliable cable person make them up for you. !
Hal or Newt should be able to hook you up.

Newt, is correct with his statements. You will lose alot of coyotes.
The first Cable restraints they showed us and made up for us to
use here were a big mistake. They will hold fox fine and some
small coyotes. Remember, The nights are long here. If you catch a coyote at dark, say 6pm. and check traps at daybreak, say 7:00 am. - That's over 12 hours to straighten a break away devise.

Also note; you are ONLY allowed to catch Fox and Coyote with them. The season starts Jan 1st. of each year.

[ 04-12-2007, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: archer01 ]

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StemCell
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The current PA regulations allow for a 325 pound rated break away device. The problem we have been encountering is that currently the J-hooks that are available are rated to 285 pounds and the amberg release devices at about 270 pounds. I had no trouble holding fox (9) in either but lost a coyote on a CR with a 285 pound J-hook. We had new snow that particular night which was still falling as I checked the sets. I beleive from reading the sign that the coyote gave the one final lunge to freedom as I approached the set at 5 am; there was no snow in the catch circle and the tracks leading away were fresh.

None of the CR catches showed any signs of chewing the cables.

In talking with numerous CR makers, the problem is with the availability of a break away device that is as strong as the regulations allow. Perhaps, just perhaps if the limit is raised to 385 pounds someone can more readily divise a break away that will hold the larger canines. I can understand the limited R&D that may be going into this effort given the limited numbers of certified users in PA and other states with similar laws.

There are other regulations on CR use published on the PA Game Commission website and in the annual game law digest. Pay particular attention to the regulations regarding entanglement, maximum cable length (it includes to the anchor point in the earth), and be sure to anchor securely. The two stake rule applies. I used 15" earth anchors with no problem (other than having to pre-drill with a cordless hammer drill and 12 inch long 5/8 inch masonry bit before driving them in the frozen ground.

I did have two instances where my 9 guage support wire was sufficiently frozen in that it did not yeild and created an entanglement issue of sorts. I applied sodium chrolide around the base of all support wires thereafter with no further incidents.

I also had some snow documented coyote refusals on cable that was dulled by a baking soda wash. These were 90 degree turns within 16 - 18 inches of the cable. The same set took a fox the next night. I intend to try a light tan paint on my cable and support wires this comming season.

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Ric
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Back to BADS.The problem with the BADS you were forced to use was not the 285lb rateing.It was the particular BAD that was detirmined to be acceptable.Probably by the same person who has figured out that it takes a 375lb BAD to hold a coyote.
Next time you are talking to the folks who worked on this regulation.I'd appreciate it if you would ask then just what that 375lb Bad is supposed to release and what the testing protocols are.I'm curious.

I know of a supplier who has produced a 280lb rated BAD whose break away rateing has been verified useing a standardised test.This BAD will hold the great majority of coyotes captured

What you guy's in PA got was a poorly concieved and implemented snareing regulation.Now You have a bad regulation with changes

[ 04-13-2007, 07:50 AM: Message edited by: Ric ]

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Newt
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When I heard that PA. was looking into legalizing Cable Restraints. I was AGAINST it from the "get go".
Some guys thought I was against PA. getting snaring legalized.
Why would they think that ? I make part of my living building and selling snares and snare supplies.
I was pushing for them NOT to settle for something that dont work. But to hold out for something that does.

Ric just said it
"What you guy's got in PA.Was a bad regulation(no pun intended)Now you have a bad regulation with changes

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phys23
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Thanks 45/70 for clearing that up for me. Now I understand.

Paul

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c w hilling
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Hey Trappers.
Thanks for the feedback i posted my reply under the wrong topic and got scolded. just kidding Hal.

I'm aware of the laws and certification course.I know Hal sells these snares / cable restraints. I have bought a few of his videos, snares, traps. But with all thi extra hardware i was not sure how they would work.

Hal on a differnt note i showed a sheep rancher your tape on snaring. (demo on the dog walking into a snare. He gave me the rights too snare on his ranch. This is a guy who is anti hunting/trapping but wines about the coyotes. thanks.

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Dusty
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Absolutely amazing.

"useing a standardised test"

What's the mean? Is there a standard way to measure these things, of can I make my own "#300 BADS" (out of 5/8 Rebar, perhaps) and go trap PA? What about if I buy 5/8 Rebar "300#" BADS from a commercial supplier, complete with "300# break" labeling?

What else is required to make a "cable restraint?" Seems like 385# would hold every deer that ever lived. I know #250LB breakaways, as I use them, hold some wolves and a few moose calves.

I couldn't agree more with Newt's sentiments. I don't imagine there's any way to get rid of this neutered version of snaring and start with something that's actually useful. I've never been so glad to live in AK....

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Hal
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"Is there a standard way to measure these things"

"An Evaluation of Breakawy Snares for use in Coyote Control"

Robert L. Phillips, F. Sherm Bolm, and Richard E. Johnson, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service, Science and Technology, Denver Wildlife Research Center, Denver, Colorado.

Proc 14th Vertebrate Pest Conference (L.R. Davis and R.E. Marsh, Eds.) Published at Univ. of Calf. Davis 1990. Pgs. 255-259.

[Smile] -- Hal

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Hal
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I really should have tried to be little more specific above. In essence the test is -- cinch the snare on a 3" pipe, and using a static pull, note whe it defeats.


"I know #250LB breakaways"

How was that rated, and what kind of lock are you using it on?

[question] -- Hal

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Dusty
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Thanks, Hal. I've seen that article. What I _really_ meant was, when a state legislates this sort of thing, do they mean "300 pounds as described in Phillips et al., 1990," or can I devise my own test pulling the 300 (or any other arbitrary value) any way I wish? Is chucking a 300 pound weight attached to 30' of cable off my balcony, and call it a breakaway if it hits the ground, OK? Can I use 1/16 cable to test my 1/8" split locks?

The point was, there seems to be a HUGE discrepancy between what I've witnessed with breakaways and what people in the "cable restraint" states seem to be experiencing. I wonder why that is - if it's technique, or something else on the snare, I don't care. If it's because BADs are as variable as I now suspect they might be, I very much care.

I've never tried to test a small breakaway. Most of the time, I'm trying to hold lynx and release moose, including 4-500 pound calves, so I have a HUGE difference in the pull ability.

I've used (SnareShop) BADs on most small locks. I believe most of my "incidental holds" have been with washer locks, but I have a lot of them so I'm not sure that has anything to do with the lock itself. Are J/S-hooks supposed to be lock-specific?

I have broken a few hundred wolf snares. Lucky for me, our local F&G office has a hydraulic breaker with a digital recording scale. They are hooked on a 3" (or thereabouts) pipe, developed to mock a moose leg. Any breakaway that will hold all wolves will hold some moose, and any that will release all moose will release some wolves, so I have more incentive to know exactly what's happening with wolf breakaways.

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Hal
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The answer is ... no, states do not say how this is measured. Some regs (WI I believe) do say, however, that these must be purchased from a commercial source. So, I believe if you actually did want to crank a piece of 5/8 rebar into a hook shape, and sell it for a 125 lb breakaway, I don't see why not. Let them take you to court over it. I believe even a half-baked lawyer could get you out of that.

This was a TERRIBLE problem in promulgating the BMPs. The BMP is how the Wisconsin "Cable Restraint" came about. It was a horrendous rush to judgment by a handful of bureaucrats, who didn't know very much about snaring -- just so they could get a snare in the BMP. And they were insistent that this "approved" snare had a 285 pound breakaway device. When I asked how that was measured, they looked at me like I had two heads, then ignored me.

I know you can appreciate the incongruity in presenting a program that was touted for it's scientific merit, that could not specify how the measurement for one of their "measurable" quantities was arrived at. That was embarrassing.

I even suggested that the committee cite this report so as to further establish it as a conventional basis for measuring these devices. Instead, if you peruse the BMPs, you will find the ratings for the snare BADs, with an asterisk. Follow the asterisk, and you will find "*manufacturer rated" -- honest to god.

So, like you say, throw a 300 pound block out the upstairs, and if that takes the bend out of your rebar -- call it a 300 pound breakaway -- manufacturer rated.

Back to the point. The lock can make a difference in the performance of the BAD, but usually by less than 10%. An example being my standard #280 hook, opening up at #260 on a 1.25" 180º lock.

I may have misread your first post. I guess I'm not horribly surprised to find that a 250 BAD might hold an occasional wolf, but I suspect that most of them that are not entangled get away, correct? Because, frankly I'd expect an unacceptable rate of loss on even coyotes with that low of a rating. I am maybe a little surprised that a moose calf can't power out, but I know nothing of moose. The average leg-snared whitetail deer can break out of a #280.

I think we are probably on the same page, or very near on our rating. While the "official" test was done on a 3 inch pipe, the old data I got off a 2.4" pipe was very close (5% higher).

So now, out of curiosity, what poundage BAD (if any) do you use for wolves?

[Smile] -- Hal

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Dusty
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I believe AK refused to participate in the BMP process for precisely those reasons. Having a background in managing charismatic predators and their accompanying politicians and bunny huggers seems to have AK trappers a bit gunshy. Thank God.

Yes, accidental holdings of big critters in little BADs is coincidental, but it happens often enough that I'm very surprised at what seems to be the opposite regularly happening in PA/WI/etc. For what it's worth, almost all my snares are enough cable to make the loop I need (generally around 36") on 6' of #9 wire, and they're pretty much always set in brush. I'm still not sure I understand what, other than politicians, makes a snare a cable restraint, so perhaps I'm missing some other major difference here.

All my wolf snares are 7/64 cable on a split #3 Thompson lock, which breaks at 700 pounds. They hold some moose and let some wolves go, but they are worth the little hassle to split the locks. ADF&G research is showing a lot of promise using a calibrated ferrule that acts as a "deer stop" (to avoid quickly killing nose-snared moose) and breakaway. I'm a little skeptical, but haven't tried them.

More interesting, they've had great luck avoiding moose altogether with wire "eye pokers" that attach near the lock and stick out a couple feet parallel to the trail. Wolves go under them, moose push the snare out of the way. Looks complicated to build, and I can't imagine how you'd coil them to fit several hundred in an airplane, but it's a promising option in a few very "moosey" areas.

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Bismuth Boy
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Well, I for one am tickled pink that the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania gave us another set of tools to use. And I'm even more thrilled that the PA Game Commission is relaxing the two-year-old standards that they set, to allow us different cables, locks, and BAD's. Sorry that we in PENNSYLVANIA don't fit what you think is the ideal solution in ALASKA/OHIO/NEW JERSEY. Geez, we were also going to try to get mink snaring approved too but maybe we shouldn't now. From the sounds of everyone on here, maybe we should petition the PENNSYLVANIA Game Commission to abolish any forward thinking they've had and allowed to date and just do away with CABLE RESTRAINTS. Sheesh!!!
Posts: 58 | From: Venango County, PA | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Newt
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Bismouth Boy,Why does PA have to TRY to reinvent the Wheel ?
Every state around you but NY snares. It works for them.
More simply put. Snares work. Cable Restraints DONT

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Bismuth Boy
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Alright guys, I was in a bad mood last night, so sorry for the rant. The only thing I can add to this is that all this stuff is brand-new to PA. The PA Game Commission has been watching the CR arena closely, now they have loosened up some regulations. I expect as they continue to see good trapper ethics and good relations between hunters and trappers over CR's, there will be additional loosening of the regulations. There has been quite a bit of talk about trying to get mink SNARING! legalized in PA now. Hopefully we can get raccoons as a target soon also.
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Hal
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Newt: You need to be careful playing with these terms. This is somewhat like "leghold" trap vs "foothold" trap, there may be a little more public appeal for a "cable restraint" than a "snare"

A cable restraint is a snare. Take Ohio for example. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that we too decide to call our snares "cable restraints". We do, in fact, promote non-lethal snaring here, although we don't try to mandate it, so it wouldn't be untoward for us to call our snares "cable restraints". However, if we change the name of them, they would still work just as well as they do now. Conversely, if one of these "cable restraint" states changes the name of their device to "snare" -- well, they are not going to function a bit better.

So a statement such as: "Snares work, cable restraints don't." really doesn't hold water, no more than the statement: "Leghold traps work, foothold traps don't"

The problem arises in the legal configuration of these snares. Almost every state has some legal requirements and restrictions for how a snare can be made and applied, so we are used to that. It's not the name of the device that makes it of lesser value, it is the legal configuration.

Now, unfortunately, on top of this we have some states that actually are so "bold" (read foolish) as to incorporate both terms, snare and cable restraint, into their regulations. With each device being configured differently. What a load of crap!

[Smile] -- Hal

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Hal
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Dusty: I've run across some unusual stuff in researching BADs and their application. One such was some snare people in Nebraska (I think). I heard they were using 125 lb BADs for coyotes. I really didn't believe it, so I sent and got some of these BADs. Sure enough, they broke out at 125 lbs. I found out later that these folks were putting the coyotes on kill poles, and the 125 lb BAD was to allow for the escape of neck-snared deer. I don't really know what the escape rate was for the coyotes, but evidently it was acceptable in that application. And I guess they were successful in releasing the neck snared deer too.

[Smile] -- Hal

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Hal
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I just got an email regarding this, from one of the posters. As noted above PA may change some of it's regulations. So it may be not be of much value to entertain a serious discussion until we see the result of those proposals.

I will address one issue though, and one that may be a problem right now. With this last bunch of states that have come on with snaring, and in particular with "cable restraints", there have been sets of slightly varying regulations.

For me, from a business perspective, I really can't afford to stock a snare that is specific to each state. You have to go with the lowest common denominator. Right now, if I make a Wisconsin legal snare, it will also be legal in PA, MI, and MO -- and of course any state that doesn't have such stringent restrictions. (I note here that you have to install your own loop stops, but they are included with the snare.)

Actually, I could make a 325 lb BAD snare for PA right now, but that means that snare would only be good for PA, and again, I'm not willing to stock a snare that will would be specific to only one state.

To be honest, I sell a washer lock snare, a cam lock snare, a 280# breakaway cam lock snare, and a WI legal snare. I believe this covers almost every state where snares are legal.

But like I said, let's wait and see how these proposed regulation changes come around. I will however, make one prediction, if they do go to a 375 lb breakaway, it probably won't be long until they go back to something lighter. (Do these guys ever pull their heads out of their butts, and just take a look around at what other states are doing? [Confused] )

[Smile] -- Hal

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Bismuth Boy
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I'm now finding out that several trappers have just received a CR survey from the PGC. Apparently on the back of the survey were the results of last year's survey in which it was indicated that 19% of all coyotes pulled out due to BADs. I think this might be part of their thinking in increasing the BAD weight.
Posts: 58 | From: Venango County, PA | Registered: Jun 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
archer01
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c w hilling,
Better wait on your dicision to come up here and use Cable Restraints. The PGC is "CONSIDERING" The following regulation changes that will take effect for next year.

1. The 1X19 cable type will be legal for cable restraint use.

2. The Break-away device BAD rating will be increased to
375 lbs. or less.

3. The legal cable lenth will be increased to 7 feet from the
anchor point to the relaxing lock contacting the minimun
loop stop.

4. The language discribing relaxing locks will specify that the
lock may not be constructed of any moving parts.

Hal and Newt do you buy used cable restraints?
If not I might open my own used cables store.
I can't afford to try all these different cables, locks, BADS, etc.
I think after the new regulations come out I'll start a new thread,
"Can you build me a better Pa. Cable Restraint?" Remember that one?

Also on the survey is reported efficiency of cable restraints for fox and coyotes was 89.9 % ; whereas efficiency for coyotes alone was only 63%. I had worst luck than that. I had more catch circles than coyotes. It's probably closer to 50% mostly females.

Also noteworthy was a total of 140 BAD -related releases on animals.
63 deer, 71 coyote, 1 redfox, 2 raccoon, 1 blackbear, 1 bobcat,
and 1 fisher. ( must have been one big redfox ! and I can't believe the bobcat.)

50 animals escaped by chewing through the cable including,
39 coyote, 3 fox, 2 raccoon, 6 unknown,
10.5% of coyotes chewed through the cable to escape.
19% of coyotes straightened the BAD.

Got to run, I have to go to the hardware store and buy another
parts compartment box.

archer01

Posts: 340 | From: N.E. Penna. | Registered: Mar 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
   

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